日前，在达沃斯论坛上，马云接受CNBC记者安德鲁·罗斯·索尔金（Andrew Ross Sorkin）的采访，展开了一场别开生面的对谈。

提问尖锐，对答精彩，再次让我们见识到马云的口才与魅力。

但整场对话里，最触动外媒神经的，是开场不久，马云说，美国不应该怪中国人抢走他们的工作，如果要怪，只能怪自己。

为什么呢？他是这样论述的：

"American international companies made millions and millions of dollars from globalization."

美国跨国企业在全球化过程中赚得盆满钵满。

"IBM, Microsoft, the profit they made was larger than the top four banks in China put together ... But where did the money go?" 

IBM、微软，这些大公司赚的钱比中国四大银行总利润都高……但钱都到哪儿去了？

关键还是美国的战略错误，导致钱没花对地方：

"In the past 30 years, America had 13 wars spending $14.2 trillion. What if they spend part of the money on building infrastructure, helping the white collars and blue collars? No matter how good your strategy is you’re supposed to spend money on your own people."

过去30年，美国在13场战争中花费了14.2万亿美元，如果这些资金有一部分用于投资基建、帮助白领和蓝领呢？无论你们的战略有多好，你们应该为民众而投资。

"The money goes to Wall Street. Then what happened? Year 2008 wiped out $19.2 trillion in US income … What if the money was spent on the Midwest of the United States?"

还有大量资金流向了华尔街。然后呢？2008年金融危机发生了，损失了19.2万亿美元。如果这些钱不是流向华尔街，而是用来开发中西部呢？

"It’s not that other countries steal American jobs. It is your strategy – that you did not distribute the money in a proper way."

不是其他国家偷走了美国的就业机会，这是你们的战略问题，你们没有合理分配资金。

马云这番不留情面的大实话让美国媒体集体炸开了锅，纷纷援引报道。

CNBC：中国富豪马云称美国浪费万亿资金在战争上，而非投资基建

《商业内幕》：阿里巴巴创始人马云残酷实在地分析美国过去30年如何走错路

美国财经博客网站ZeroHedge：阿里巴巴马云在达沃斯投下一剂苦涩而真实的药丸：美国在过去30年在战争中浪费了14万亿美元

（注：Redpill指让人睁眼看清残酷事实真相的事物或思维方式）

马云啪啪打脸美国；美国错将资金投入战争而非国民

这还是开场，就已经这么劲爆，全程更是高潮迭起。来看完整视频！另外，马云的英语真的越来越6了呢！

索尔金的采访从马云与特朗普的会面切入，问这次见面到底是谁主动找谁的。

马云如实回答，是朋友建议的，主意听起来不错，于是就去了。

One day I got a request from some people: 'Jack do you want to meet the president-elect?' I said, 'Is that true? I'm not ready for that, 'cause I don't know what to talk about.' And then a few days later, I got another request. I got several requests. I thought about it. I think, yes, maybe I should go and have a talk. At least I think President-elect Donald Trump would be happy to hear what I talk about, so I went.

有一天，有人问我你想不想与候任总统见面，我说真的吗，我还没准备好，我不知道要谈些什么。过了几天，又收到了几次请求。我想了想也许我应该去谈一谈，至少特朗普可能会对我说的东西感到高兴，所以我就去了。

马云的回答技高一筹，他站在世界的高度，将西方化敌为友：

The world needs a new leadership. But the new leadership is about working together. This is what I understand. We do not necessarily need one specific leader to teach us what to do, what not to do.

世界需要新的领袖，但新的领袖意味着携手共进，这是我的理解。新的领袖并不需要是特定的某一个，来教导大家什么可以做、什么不能做。

马云另外提到，习主席提及中国作为世界第二大经济体应该担负起责任，并表示未来5年中国的进口额将达到8万亿美元。

他激动地表示，这番话让他感到很骄傲：

As a businessperson, I want the world to share the prosperity together, to join the force together. As a Chinese, I'm happy about what he committed. This is the first time I heard a Chinese leader putting a number on the commitment. This makes me excited because China is transforming from exporting to importing. If there's a concrete number, if we could fulfill it, this is going to be a huge change to China and to the world.

作为一个商人，我希望全世界能够共同担负起责任、携手合作；作为一个中国人，我也对他所作出的承诺感到高兴，这是我第一次听到中国领导人作出量化承诺，这让我兴奋，因为中国正从出口向进口转型，如果能够达成一个具体的数据目标，这对中国和世界而言都将是个巨大的转变。

索尔金再度抛出难题，让马云对比阿里巴巴与亚马逊，问到底哪种商业模式正确。

马云说，商业模式没有标准，两种都正确：

I hope both are right. And because the world can never have one mode. If the world has only one correct mode, the world's too boring. We need to have all kinds of modes. And the people who do the mode should believe the mode. And I believe what I do.

我希望两者都是正确的，因为世界不只有一种商业模式，如果世界只有一种“正确”的商业模式，这个世界将非常乏味。我们需要各种各样的模式，为某种模式而努力的人们必须相信这种模式，我相信我所做的。

马云也分析了亚马逊与阿里的不同，道出了阿里的经营哲学——我们更包容，用技术让每个企业都能成为亚马逊。亚马逊一下被比了下去啊。

Amazon is more like an empire. Everything they control themselves, buy and sell. And our philosophy is that we want to be an eco-system. Our philosophy is to empower others to sell, empower others to serve, to make sure the other people are more powerful than us. Our philosophy is that we think using internet technology, we can make every company become Amazon.

亚马逊更像是一个帝国，自己控制所有环节，从买到卖；我们的哲学则是希望打造生态系统，我们的哲学是赋能其他人，协助他们去销售、去服务，确保他们能够比我们更有力量。我们相信通过互联网技术，我们能让每一家企业都成为亚马逊。

索尔金又抓住阿里不控制供应链的弱点，问这样怎么能保证高效呢？人家亚马逊可是几小时就能送货到家。

对此，马云用具体数据进行了驳斥：

We made same-day delivery possible in 125 cities last year. Imagine 10 years ago, deliver one thing from Beijing to Hangzhou took about 8 days. Now you can deliver things from Beijing to Inner Mongolia, some cities within 12 hours. It's improving. You can never expect these things to happen within 24 hours. We have patience.

去年我们在中国的125个城市实现了当日达。10年前从北京到杭州的邮寄就要8天，现在12个小时就能从北京送货到内蒙古城市，物流效率提升了。你不可能一天期望达到这样的进步，我们有足够的耐心。

这里，马云还有一句话很动人：

This is what we feel proud of. It's not how much money we made, it's not how powerful we are, it's that we can make technology very inclusive. Every small company can use it. This is my dream.

我们所骄傲的，不是我们挣了多少钱，而是我们具有多大的能量。我们可以使科技变得更有包容性，每一个小企业都可以使用，这是我的梦想。

主持人索尔金犀利地抛出阿里巴巴广受诟病的盗版和侵权问题，马云详细地谈了这个问题，条理清晰地给出了回答。

As an e-commerce, when you have 10 million small business, and empower them to sell, you cannot check every product like Amazon does. So e-commerce itself may have a lot of flaws.

当你作为电商为1000万小企业提供销售平台，你无法像亚马逊那样买来再卖出，去检查每件商品的真伪。电商本身就有很多瑕疵。

In the past 17 years, we are the leader in anti-piracy issues. With big progress last year alone, we put 400 people in jail. We deleted 370 million fake products off our site.

但在过去的17年中，我们一直是反盗版的领军人物。就去年一年，我们把400人送进了监狱，从网站下架3.7亿件假冒商品。

Fighting against fake products is the war against human greediness. It is not easy. You can not finish it, but you have to continue to fight.

反假冒伪劣产品之战实则是对抗人类贪婪本性之战。并不容易，也不能一下子完成，但是必须持之以恒，战斗不止。

马云上面这段回答，条理清晰，有理有据，举例子、引数据、最后升华感情一样不少，少年们，注意学习啊。

最后索尔金问阿里巴巴是不是要进军娱乐界，是不是要和好莱坞合作了，马云的回答更是精彩，幽默又煽情，金句频出。

Five years ago, we had a big debate about 10 years later, 20 years later, what are the things the Chinese society want? We say "happiness" and "health" - the two "H" strategy.

五年前，我们有过一次大辩论，关于10年、20年后中国最需要什么。最后决定是happiness和health，双H战略。

We believe Hollywood, the movie industry, can bring people happiness. Because today nobody is happy. Rich people are not happy, and poor people are not happy. At least when I watch movie, I feel happy. So I think we should be partner with Hollywood.

我们认为好莱坞，或说电影产业能给人带来快乐。如今富人也好，穷人也罢，没人觉得快乐。不过，至少当我看电影的时候，我觉得挺开心。所以，我觉得我们应该和好莱坞合作。

My favorite movie is Forrest Gump. When people call me crazy and stupid in the past 17 years, I told myself Forrest Gump said 'Go ahead, never care about other people'.

我最喜欢的电影是《阿甘正传》。在过去17年中，当人们说我疯说我傻的时候，我告诉自己阿甘说了“勇往直前，不要管其他人怎么想”。

And Gump also said: 'Nobody makes money by catching whales, people make money by catching shrimps.' So we serve small business.

另外阿甘还说“都去捕鲸赚不到钱，抓小虾米才赚钱。”所以，我们服务小企业、小生意。

觉不觉得这段回答简直是托福口语模板，以小见大，晓之以理，动之以情。

有观众向马云提问——中美之间会不会发生贸易战争，这是很多人关心的问题，马云的答案也十分清晰明了。

I think China and the US should never have a trade war and we will never have a trade war. And I think we should give president-elect Trump some time. I believe one thing, when trade stops, the world stops.

我认为中美之间不应该有贸易战，也不会出现贸易战。而且我觉得应该给特朗普一些时间去想明白。我相信，如果贸易停止了，世界也就停滞了。

最后不忘给大家煲了满满一碗鸡汤——眼前不光有赚钱，还有诗和远方。

The world is so wonderful, why should I always be the CEO of Alibaba? I come to this world not to work, I come to this world to enjoy my life. I don't want to die in my office, I want to die at the beach.

世界如此美妙，我为啥非得一直做阿里巴巴的CEO呢？我来到这世界，不是为了工作，而是为了享受生活啊。我不想死在办公室，我想死在沙滩上。

引自中国日报网双语新闻